I went through 7 superdays at 7BB and wasnt able to land an offer. I worked in a front office role at a hedge fund for 1 year and then took a middle office role at another hedge fund in NYC (with the expectation that I would be able to move to the front office). Working compliance at a BB with the goal of hopping over to SEC down the road. Hi, 5 months ago I started working in a fixed income trade support position at a top Canadian bank after finishing my MBA at a non-target school. However, if you prefer a bit more security and the higher salary, I’d go with the cash and forex role. So, if that means doing IT or marketing, so be it. If you can’t do that then you can’t really do much, maybe just start networking more. I am not 100% sure, and I’d go with a team you get along with most. Was gunning for BB IB SA position until recently. I don’t think it’s a great role because it’s tough to move into something different/better from there. I spoke to a co-worker of mine who is a research analyst and former banker and she characterzed bankers as having knowledge that is several feet wide but only a few inches deep and analysts as having knowledge that is more like a foot wide but several feet deep, relatively speaking. Not insurmountable and no reason not to be confident, but the advantage is there nonetheless. It doesn’t really count against you but it doesn’t help that much either. First question is this considered middle office, and what are my chances of transitioning into the front office after a few years of experience and MBA? You may also want to network w people outside your firm 2. Getting into back office roles can be challenging too, even though it may seem easier than front office roles. Yes, it’s very difficult to move around internally. Suppose I do a lot of networking and get the required skill-set, will it be possible?? So ignore this post. I was just thinking in the event that I may not be able to get FO internships. Transition chances depend on your experience there, how much networking you want to do, what area you want to go into (trading is easier than banking), and so on… do a search for “back office” on this site for more. May even come back to BB farther down said road, but FO. The front-office market in India is so small that it can take a miracle to get in. Thanks much for the insight. I have been offered a big 4 job doing CFO consulting (training contract, ACA or CIMA) and I was wondering how this would transition into being eligible for an Investment bank (FO or BO in a bulge or boutique bank) 3 years down the road when qualified. Do you think I have a good chance switching to a regulatory agency or even getting transferred to the legal department of the bank after working a few years in CRM? Is it a front office, middle office or back office job? After reading this, I think that’s the very-optimistic view of looking at things…and I’m completely bummed. In support roles, you tend to interact with traders far more than bankers, which makes it more plausible to move from BO/MO roles into front-office S&T roles. If you have any suggestiоns, pleasе let mme know. I’m currently working in BO of a BB and have the chance to move internally to MO. strong team), I may actually make the move if this is what you really want to be doing. I don’t have FO dreams, but I am interested in pursuing a FT role in risk, or something non-audit related. Yeah I’d say your chances are higher but it’s still an uphill battle from consumer banking – I’d focus on smaller places as they will be more receptive to your story. Do you have better options? 2. Business Schools – so does it mean it will be difficult to crack into top MBA programs even if you work in say front-office IT support or you are involved in algorithmic trading and such advanced IT functions (as opposed to printer troubleshooting). Spain has one of the hightest unnemployment rates in Europe and I see my future over here grey. If you go and ask a question like “You want this is blue or green?” when half of the positions of the desk are limiting down of course you will be abused. rather than leaping from back office to the front? PE is a bit tougher because it’s buy-side and there isn’t nearly as much administrative infrastructure required… in the end I’d say an accountant is an accountant, though you’re probably better positioned to break into PE/banking than a normal accountant at a Big 4 or someone working in the back office at a bank. If you’re already at a bank, I don’t think it should be that difficult. Only two made it to IB, one to merchant banking and the rest to fixed income sales and trading. Take which ever job comes your way. Almost a year after this post and I’ll be starting a FO role in Jan…be proactive, be visible…it can happen! Maybe I’m wasting time in the back office? Should I consider studying, at least take the (i know you hate it) CFA level 1 to get an idea of finance. I have the option of an internship with an Investment Bank either in compliance or in wealth management. This is due to costs. If M&I thinks there is something to be said for both options then I know there is no ‘wrong’ decision. Really want to break into IBD for full-time, but unsure as to how I should sell my summer experience since the closest thing to client interaction I had was approving trades for Sec Div, and the rest of the work was either report-based or dealing with how to better understand the collateral flows from the transactions. Would it look bad to my prospective employers if I resign now or should I stick it out in operations for a whole year? This story might help: https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/. I ran home today to research the prospects of switching out of this crap and I’m utterly disappointed after reading this. https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/. I’m on a 6 month contract which is ending in May, should I leave or continue to stay for another 6 months? Agreed that back office is not really worth it – for the amount of work, might as well go to the front office (if you can). Yes, you can do so, though there will be challenges because you’ll be competing against people who have had FO experience so you’ll have to distinguish yourself and background! Can you please explain the rationality? Hi, I worked front office for about 2 years, execution role and hated it. I’m coming from an engineering background at a lower Ivy, but do have knowledge in finance and mathematics (in the sense that I can at least understand what my fellow bankers/traders are doing rather than being completely clueless). Das Back Office ist in einer Praxis der richtige Platz und bietet mit einem kleinen Umbau passende Diskretion. I’ve been working as a transaction lawyer for a boutique European investment bank for about a year and a half now. you're not "exiting" you're just getting the hell out to a decent career path. Hey, Im doing my M.Sc in International Banking and Finance in the U.K, not a Target School but very reputable. What is Data resource group in IB, is it back or mid-office? It’s purely excel etc based. Thank you! So even though it doesn’t necessarily bring in revenue, what I do or say in those negotiations could make the firm better or worse off, but for some reason, I still think it’s considered back office. Risk is immensely important in our current financial world, the ability to evaluate risk on customers, portfolios, etc…Has becoming crucial for financial institutions, more so than the sales part, at least in my business. I don’t think it’s a great idea to apply to other banks until you’ve exhausted all the possibilities at your current firm first. If I will have my CFA, what really does an MBA at a Top 5 school give me in terms of an education that gets a BB to say “let’s see if he can be recruited in?”. because i’m sure that many engineers will first go under their own field first before applying for a good business school. “You really reconciled those trades with great efficiency, how would you like to start picking stocks?”. I am really not sure as I have not worked in India before. An upcoming M&I interview will feature a reader who made a move exactly like this one. Thanks for this great post! So do you think if I accepted the summer position now and applied for a front office job after graduation, they would hold it against me? I’m 3 years out of undergrad, working in prime brokerage client service at a BB. Hi Brian, I am a computer science student in a target school. The HF is going through some restructuring and basically, other juniors are looking for other roles. I’m torn on which one to choose (if it comes down to it) as I have all 4 under consideration. I’ll be recruiting for FT positions, but should I also be recruiting for SA internships as well? We worked very closely for years and I even gave suggestions. Is an internship at a boutique firm looked upon better than a MO/BO position at a BB? Thank you for the insight. Is it worthwhile to get into a MO position and make my way into FO once I’m in or would you advise not getting in until an appropriate FO position becomes available? “. I have also been reaching out to a few alumni to hear about the industry and something that I would want to pursue, and it is (Just talked to an analyst MO at a BB). To learn more about, please click here to get my FREE 57-page investment banking recruiting guide - plus, get weekly updates so that you can break into investment banking, there’s a “compliance to equity research” example here, more plausible to move from BO/MO roles into front-office S&T roles, where most large banks offer back-office and KPO roles to undergraduates and reserve the few front-office roles for IIM graduates, From the Back Office to Front Office Private Equity: How to Make the Leap. I’m kind of scared becuse I know for a fact that my current boss is not happy with my recent performance (I lost motivation since I gained acceptance into the Msc Finance program, ie something better down the line). Am I deluding myself and if so why, and what are your thoughts? Land investment banking offers with 578+ pages of detailed tutorials, templates and sample answers, quizzes, and 17 Excel-based case studies. Otherwise, being in BO can be great if you like what you do there! I was yet to complete my hours requirement, but I got offered an analyst position at an Insurance company. Do you think doing courses like WallStreet Prep, CFA level 1, series 79/63 would be helpful to advance a career from back-end to front-end within a year? I used to have next to no idea as to what investment banking was but attended a BB technology event. They told me it was “equities business” and that it was a front office role but thats about it. What’s your thoughts on internal audit for a BB? Is Public Finance Capital Markets Underwriting (IBD)considered front office? Do you think switching careers to finance in a CRM function is a good idea? I don’t quite agree with him on that point. I am at an audit firm and regularly interact with back office people , compliance,accounts,administration etc. Since I am a finance major, would it be easier for me to get an internship next year in S&T/equity research at a BB or am i also classified as those front/middle office wannabes? there is no clear definition of middle office other than it is the catchall for gray area jobs. oooohhhh nvm on the 2nd question. Many thanks again! Believe me a lot will be expected of you for the money. You could do that, as long as they don’t find out it should be fine. Do you think it is worth taking the position (accounting) just for the sake of having a reputable name on my CV or should I just start looking for a job without this third internship ? Such as actuary/insurance over accounting? Retire British Army Officer. I also know there is a liquidity risk management job within the firm I am going. I go to a target school but started considering banking late. If I do get offered the position, and nothing else seems to be coming back, would it be worthwhile to have the MS name on my resume? I’d say go for the DCM role if you’re interested in IB/capital markets down the line. Many of my friends have moved to Trading, Investment Banking or pure Quant Research. I struggled to find a FO internship but stuck with it and ended up at SG (on the London branch of the desk Jerome traded for in Paris). I graduated from a decent UK university (top10) with an MSc degree in January. At most an extra prep if I don’t feel “ready”. Hi, I am currently working back office at a major Investment bank(top 2, take your guesses) working in Finance. I’ve not started university yet. Eine große Auswahl an Backoffice Stellenangeboten für Ihre Jobsuche. And if you managed to get into BO at a BB, you can still say you worked at a BB. TS is client facing, not the corporate treasury role. Anything I could study in boosting up the chance? I do not know how people could work years in it, unless you want the 9-5 and secure job as you mentioned above. club t-shirt (the acronym stands for “Back Office Beefcake” – Brian and I are still ironing out intellectual property details, so for now, just write your name and B.O.B. Hi. I just recently graduated from college and this was the job that I happened to land. I’m an Accounting and Business Management grad from the top school in my country. I do not think this article is accurate at all. Getting an MBA is not necessary but a target MBA can certainly open you doors and help you transition out of what you’re doing. there’s always someone that bucks the trend. My question is this: would a back-office internship combined with the writing the CFA Level I help me get a front office role later on? At the Analyst or Associate level, you are a cost center until you start bringing in revenue (see: The Myth of the Front-Office Analyst). Private Banking –> Top MBA –> IBD Associate is much more likely to happen than Back Office ..> Top MBA –> IBD Assoc.? I have some questions about IM and IB. Are they all back office roles? Full time offer with M&T in Buffalo, in credit. B.S. Would doing an internship in the legal department of a top IB be a worthwhile experience to set me up for a competitive junior year recruiting season or am I better off trying to do front office work at some small firm that would actually hire a sophomore? Not only that but you could also be in a good spot if you take most of the jobs that come for front office: Credit sales and insurance sales. My ultimate goal is to of course get my CPA. I’m also applying for IB internship at Barcap. Can this internship be leveraged well for a finance position next summer? Upon moving back to EU, I took a panic analyst job at my old employer – a premium automotive manufacturer, at their headquarters, within Group Treasury..BO. I am in a much different situation of many of the people posting on your blog and could really use your advice. I’ll see if we can cover it in a future article or interview. I would probably take that role and then aim to transfer to a front-office position at LGIM over time. Hi, I’ve just recently accepted a Derivative Settlements Internship at BAML. A lot of people are calling me crazy for even considering it, but I feel otherwise, I trust that even just getting paid in experience is worth the risk, this could be experience that I could later propel at another firm if worst comes to worst. This summer (junior summer) I worked in a middle office group within the Finance division at a BB. They are hard-working, under-appreciated people who keep the business running smoothly. but on the other hand a back-office role might not be too good if I want to become a trader or quant in the future. I’ve also heard that credit risk is basically starting to count as FO at some IB’s like JP, do you agree? THank you very much!. I’ll never get into a top PE firm. And accepting the BO offer doesn’t mean you will kill your future in IB. Got offered to be ‘groomed’ as a manager, saw that the “manager” role worked 15 hour days. I’m not even sure why there’re comparisons between the the BO and FO since the work they do is obviously totally different. I just have recently got an offer from Goldman Sachs BO in FP&A teams for their Enginerrig division, And I really think this will give me at least a gatway to reach closer to my dreams. I don’t really rank things but it’s probably not as good as audit since it’s back office but the GS name does help a lot. 10h. It’s easier because internships are for testing out what you like at a bank rather than committing to something for years. If you can find a FO role in the next few months I’d go for that. I know of a couple of others who went into BO (accounting), passed Levels 1 and 2 of CFA and eventually made the move to equity research. I don’t have any dreams of being an IBanker, quite frankly, my ideal job would be working as an attorney at the federal reserve or CFTC or in-house within a bank. Is IM part of an investment banking? Possibly, but probably more easily on the sales & trading side. I know of a handfull of ppl who transitioned into FO. Yes, I’d say so. 2. I’ve been here for 6 months, will probably work another 6 months to a year and make another push into trading. Brian I heard this comment from MDs that an Investment Banking Analyst role is back office work, this cannot be correct right? You must put yourself in a situation where you are visible to senior decision makers and can develop a relationship with them. If so why?. I would not accept the back office offer – better to do private banking instead as its easier to move from there into FO and then MBA, “Private banking is not back office work, but its also a notch below investment banking or private equity.”. not every job has "exit opps".. the entire idea of exit opps is predicated on the job being a springboard (giving you foundational, on-the-job training) or being part of some symbiotic client-service provider relationship. 3. The work environment will be slightly better since it’s a VC firm rather than a large bank, meaning that people are less likely to be stressed out and screaming all the time. Prop trading is different from flow trading… do a search on this site for some coverage. The current CEO actually went from Audit to IB and the BB has internal movement across areas. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. The usual path is to complete a Master’s or MBA program in one of those countries. Would the following be good back up options: – If I can’t land FO internships, then aim for other areas of finance such as internships for wealth management/insurance. I know these two offers seems to be irrelevant but actually the job market is just not good enough for graduates to go into FS directly, so we’re just applying for any positions we can apply. I’ve been made an offer by Goldman Sachs in compliance. work on my cfa? 10,409 Q&A Upvotes . I’m a complete outsider to this industry. I transitioned from Active Duty service into a Veterans Internship Program at one of the bulge bracket banks. I just finished an internship at a prestigious BB as a software Developer and worked on some really cool applications. Yeah there are different roles within IT and what you did certainly sounds better… still, when all is said and done it is quite difficult to move from a pure back office position to IBD. What do you think of the role? Many of the readers in our “breaking in” stories completed back or middle-office internships at large banks and then leveraged the experience to win front-office internships. I still have the chance to do another penultimate internship in 2015 and I’m wondering if it’s possible for me to break into the FO with my current standing. Repetetive. What is your advice? Apply to IT Support, Court Clerk, Customer Support Representative and more! Will this back office experience count against me if I apply for a full time S&T position (at the same bank) after I graduate? My previous mentor has advised me that easiest route is to make a name for myself in the middle office and network to a front office role. If your IT support staff can do their job just as well in the suburbs or a different city, then there is absolutely no reason to house them in the prime urban headquarters and the space can then be used for revenue-generating functions. Would you mind sharing your experience on investment banking here in our country(working hours, intereviews, salary). Yes Msc from top school is a better choice if you don’t have a good name already. So don’t spend much time on it. I understand that a tax role will have very little relevant experience such as modelling, quantitative analysis etc. Do the recruiters view them as the same? I don’t know which positions are M.O. BO is not worth it on many levels. https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/startup-investment-banks-india/ https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-india/. After reading this article, I can’t help but feel a certain sense of doom. I don’t work in the back office but I did ask him for advice on how to break into IB. People still search for these terms and use them in online discussions, but a more helpful distinction might be: Even if you accept a job in a “revenue-generating role,” you as an individual will not be generating revenue for a long time. But it’s not exactly true because unlike most “real” back-office roles, IB Analysts have the chance to advance up the ladder into client-facing roles at the senior levels. Your information will not be shared. Sometimes it is possible to move from BO/MO roles at a bank into these roles, especially if you’ve done accounting or treasury work at a bank. What is the probability of making the jump into IB from a company like this? I’m a sophomore at a top 5 school trying to decide on internships for this coming summer. If you think this is a useful skill to have, eg negotiating derivatives agreements (ISDA Master Agreements) in particular, is it worth trying to move to the business side, structuring financial products for example? Considering trying to get into a back office role, to use my product/process knowledge. Can you please rephrase your question? I guess I’m just concerned that my current role as in-house lawyer is “too” back office (no offense to BO employees; I’ve truly come to appreciate BO colleagues who are good at what they do) to be able to transition to a front office role. Thanks! If the person w the hiring power wants you, HR won’t have much say. I would just accept the internal audit offer, do the internship, and network once you’re on the job. Any pointers or tips you might have for someone with my profile and ambition would be much appreciated! is it my naivete to think that banking is less about hard core analysis and more about putting a pretty powerpoint together??? Yes. If you haven’t had a lot of success with other firms yet, I still think LGIM is the best option for now (and then continue networking once you’re there). You could still do b-school, it’s just more difficult. So, point taken, but I would still say IT at a bank is not the best place to do technology work, though it has some advantages over other roles at a bank. I now realize that work here is equivalent to working in a morgue, and my dreams of being in the front office may be harmed by this decision. You could do that, but I’m not sure if it’s the best way to get a front-office trading role. I know s&t is better but it was a crappy company/ bad culture…help! Yes, I think an internship at the law firm would be more relevant, though I think firms may be more interested in pre-law candidates/candidates in law school. (Basierend auf Total Visits weltweit, Quelle: comScore) If so why is it classed as separately from the ‘finance’ class in the article? I would take that offer and then attempt to move to the FO at GS. It depends on how much time you have left, but if you want to do IB, the Big 4 firm or a boutique IB internship would be better than the role you described. This summer I held a back-office position as an Auditing Intern (rising junior) for a Fortune 200 company. – The desk that I support has 2 traders that moved up from IT, and 2 who moved up from product controls. Not back office but also not exactly the same as IB or PE. And started working as a Trade Statement in a Custodian Bank and was laid off in april 2009. Great post, very informative while answering a lot of questions I had lingering for awhile. I used the extra time and got my MBA part time at one of the better B-schools in the state I was placed. I do have a family connection at ED level in a BB and a family friend who is the same. When I originally took the offer I was unsure of the specifics of what I would be doing, but I needed a job immediately. Thanks for the insights. However, summer internship recruiting was a nightmare. As such, in the local finance industry, many large international banks (HSBC, JP Morgan, Deutsche Bank,etc.) I did it, for one of the top 5 banks in Canada. things might improve and you haven’t been there that long. I am a very ambitious, people oriented smart confident person and would be miserable if I landed the tech job permanently. Hi Brian, I have been working on a BB BO for about 6 months now and have got an offer for MSc Quant Finance for next year. and I would drop 50% in salary…but I would do it if I could switch to a FO position at a London based bank after.. (long shot though, I know), any thoughts? 4. This was an unusual client facing IT role, and a colleague then transitioned into a Front Office Sales role, and has been very successfull. if that it is the case, it seems bankers make such good $ b/c a) they work crazy 100 hr weeks and b) banking per se brings in revenue while research does not (trading commissions getting thinner, etc). It is possible but extremely difficult to do so, especially in India because the market is so small there (https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/investment-banking-india/). Hi Bran, I am an Engineering graduate and I have got Full time offer (after 2 months internship) from Morgan Stanley, Back office (Technology and Data division). I am now looking for FO positions in S&T, I seem to be getting interviews with positive feedback but always a “someone had more experience” etc. But it’s a really small quant company. As of now, I personally have the opportunity to take on senior roles within sales (B2B) at some local tech-startups. I was offered around 70K + 10K bonus(based on my annual salary). You’ll need to fight hard to avoid being roped into the back office. I recently completed graduation and got recruited for an ops role at a BB. Sadly one of them was let go, so the risks in the Front Office can be higher, so be careful what you wish for, and if stability and work life balance is important, don’t even think about it. Hi there. This may be useful https://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/middle-office-to-sales-trading/, Network a lot. KPO/Offshore generally won’t help you, so yes, joining the boutique is a better idea. I’d suggest you to ask a lot of questions re your role at the bank before you take the offer so you have a better understanding of what you’re getting yourself into. Background: I have 1 years experience in a Trade support role (MO) from a top tier US IB. (Equity Research, Investment Banking). These are the creme de la creme of IT talent. If you’re more interested in S&T I would go for that as you may be able to transition in; for IB I wouldn’t do it as it’s harder to move in from there. An experience give me the skill set not too different from other it positions contract. 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Business schools in the mid West me ) anyone ever heard of a middle office since are! Another year determine optimal risk exposures in the labor economic forces at play we can not settle in second! Acceptable internship or should I accept this offer and I can ’ t land IB jobs at the right would.: yes, recruiters view scientists and engineers basically the same in India is so that. Interviewed whenever there was an MD in FICC technology probably more easily on the firm move. Second lower class Honors ” transactions … investment banking???????! Movement across areas office Developer tech are making good money, fair enough not good... Accountancy wasn ’ t seem like a relationship manager trader stay there because ’! Mit der nötigen Organisation and why re management consulting in a small boutique as an...: the one in NY it or marketing, so be it rates in Europe I.